Nitrocellulose lacquer frequently asked questions

NOTE Lacquer should only be used in a well ventilated area. You should wear a properly fitted vapour respirator during the application and drying of nitrocellulose lacquer. Machine Mart sell an ideal respirator for under £20 including organic solvent cartridges.

All my lacquer is supplied in 400ml aerosols, which generally have adjustable elliptical nozzles allowing a vertical or horizontal fan. An alternative round nozzle which is better for sunbursts is available on request.

It is illegal in the UK for anyone under the age of 16 to attempt to purchase aerosol paints. By ordering lacquer aerosols, you confirm that you are over 16 years of age.

I can supply lacquer to most of the European Union as well as the British Isles.

If you are looking for general information on how to spray a guitar, there is a series of posts in the blog on guitar finishing. More to follow soon!

Before you buy

Preparation

Recipes for authentic-looking finishes

Spraying technique

Other stuff

Q. Why do the colour swatches show two different colours?

A.

Where the lacquer colour shows a darker shade on the right hand side, it represents the colour of the lacquer when sprayed over with my Light Tint Gloss clearcoat.

Q. Can you send lacquer to me in (France, Sweden, USA etc.)?

A.

I can now supply lacquer to most EU countries, although shipping is expensive.

If you are in USA you can buy similar lacquer from ReRanch or in Sweden from GitarrDelar.se but I don’t know of any suppliers in other countries.

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Q. What about grain filler and sanding sealer?

A.

It’s essential for a professional looking finish to prepare your wood so that you have a perfect surface for the lacquer.

Sand to 320 grit to remove any pits or scratches.

Open pored wood such as ash and mahogany will require grain-filling. You don’t need to grain-fill maple and can generally get away without it on alder. I like the Rustins grain filler available from my shop but some people now are starting to use epoxies. I’ve recently tried  Stewart Macdonald’s water based grain filler but with mixed results in line with the reviews on the site.

See my  step-by-step grain-filling post in the blog.

The next step after grain filling is sealing, which is designed to give a smooth surface for the lacquer. You can just use lacquer if you wish but as it doesn’t fill
imperfections very well it can take a lot to get a smooth finish.

You can use a nitrocellulose-based sanding sealer under my lacquer and I sell a high build sanding sealer in aerosol form. If you are spraying a solid colour then my white primer will do the job well, plus it gives an even base for lighter colours, increasing their brightness.

Whether using sanding sealer or primer, always sand flat and if imperfections remain, spray another few coats, allow to dry and sand again.

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Q. Is this stuff I have compatible with your lacquer?

A.

I haven’t a great deal of experience mixing finishes and only use nitrocellulose so you would need to test any combination yourself before use.

Generally anything that is cellulose or shellac based should be okay but again, you need to test it to be sure.

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Q. Can I just use Halfords car paint?

A.

Although car sprays come in a wide variety of colours, many people have found that it doesn’t harden very well on wood and can stay soft for many months.

If you want a special colour making up, please ask as I can have most colours put into aerosol cans. It takes a couple weeks to get manufactured and is subject to a minimum order of 1 litre of lacquer (around £50) plus £16 per aerosol.

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Q. How do I refit the nozzle to the can?

A.

If your lacquer arrives with the nozzle detached, the best way to refit it is with a twisting action. Trying to press it in will probably result in you getting lacquer all over your fingers.

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Q. How many coats should I apply?

A.

It’s difficult to talk about coats as it depends how thick you apply it. Generally I’d expect three coats each of about 3 passes, and depending on ambient temperature, with between 5 minutes and 1/2 hour between coats. The transparent colours get darker the more coats you spray so you’ll need to spray enough to get your desired shade.

You only need to sand between coats if you need to remove an imperfection such as dust or a run. You should spray thinly enough so that runs don’t happen of course.

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Q. Any special tips for metallics?

A.

Yes! The technique that I use when I spray metallics is to dust the final coat of colour on from a distance, allowing the flakes to stand at all angles instead of flat on the body. Then I dust on the first few clear coats (so as not to disturb the metallic) before building up thickness. This technique give the strongest contrast.
See an example.

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Q. Any special tips for satin and matt finishes?

A.

What I do is to spray plenty of coats of Clear Satin lacquer (or Clear Matt) leave to harden overnight and flat sand with 800 grit. As ever when flat sanding, take care on the corners as it is all to easy to sand through.

Then I spray a final coat of Clear Satin (or matt) lacquer all over and leave it. No buffing! That way you’ll get a nice even sheen all over.

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Q. How many tins do I need?

A.

As a rule of thumb, refinishing a guitar body will take a can each of primer, colour and clear. It depends however on how well you prepare the wood, how economical you are and how much paint actually ends up on the guitar and this does depend on your skill level. Inexperienced refinishers may need more!

Preparation is also a key factor. Sand out those scratches first. Trying to fill them with lacquer can be a long and expensive process!

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Q. How long do I leave the guitar before buffing?

A.

The longer the better! I’d say a minimum of a week. I tend to leave at least 3 weeks.

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Q. Why do this buffing thing?

A.

It’s impossible to get a flat finish with lacquer so it is always flat sanded and buffed to a high gloss. See the Reranch site for details.

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Q. Why am I getting drips of lacquer on my guitar?

A.

If you press too hard on the nozzle, you can sometimes get a buildup of lacquer on the rim of the can (where it’s crimped closed) and this can sometimes drop off or be blown onto your work. It’s a good idea to wipe the rim every few passes.

You can mimimise the chances of this by hanging the body rather than laying it flat for spraying.

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Q. Should I invert the can to clean the nozzle?

A.

Some people suggest that after use you invert the can and spray to clean the nozzle. I DO NOT recommend you do this.

The nozzles do not tend to clog and cleaning them this way is a sure way to waste propellant, depressurise the can and end up with half a can of lacquer that won’t spray, or worse splutter lacquer onto your guitar due to low can pressure.

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Q. How do I get a butterscotch finish?

A.

If the body is ash (and it really should be as the look depends on ash’s strong grain pattern) then you’ll need to grain fill first. I like and use Rustins grain filler.

There are instructions for finishing blond at bottom of this page on the Vintage Guitar site.

Following this, to get an authentic-looking blonde finish with my aerosols:

  1. Sand the wood to 320 grit to remove any scratches.
  2. grain fill thoroughly and sand smooth to 320 grit.
  3. Spray several thin coats of sanding sealer to lock it all in and flatten. The aim is to get a very smooth surface for the lacquer. Repeat this step if necessary until you have a very smooth guitar body. There is sanding sealer demo here.
  4. Spray White Blonde gloss evenly so as to opaque the grain but not too much. Spray more white on the edges if you like as they were generally opaqued to hide any joins in the body.
  5. If you want a “butterscotch blonde” spray (lightly) tinted gloss to give an amber shade to your taste. For a creamy colour use Light Tint
    lacquer, for a full-on butterscotch use Tinted Gloss or for a more yellow colour, Clear Amber.
  6. Follow with more coats of clear gloss, and leave for 2-3 weeks to harden
  7. Finally flat sand and buff.

Don’t sand the blonde before the clear coat as it’s likely you’ll rub through and expose wood.

To sand at the end you should use progressively finer “wet and dry” papers (from B&Q etc.) used with water that has a little washing-up-liquid added. Don’t get your guitar too wet as if water gets in screw holes it will swell the wood and crack your finish.

Finish with P1200 paper and then use T-Cut to bring up the gloss.

The reason for the sanding and buffing is that it’s impossible to get a completely smooth finish when spraying.

If you wish you can substitute my Butterscotch lacquer for the White Blond and omit the tinting steps unless you want to further darken the colour.

More good stuff on finishing on the Reranch site.

These guitars were finished using my lacquer aerosols.

You’ll need:

  • 1 can Rustins Grain Filler (natural)
  • 1 can Sanding Sealer
  • 1 can White Blonde
  • 1 can (Lightly) Tinted Gloss
  • 1 or 2 cans Clear Gloss

You’ll also need grain filler (Craft Supplies) and some abrasives (B&Q, Homebase, Halfords) and some T-Cut (B&Q, Homebase, Halfords).

You might be surprised how easy it is to get good results. As you probably know, the key success factors are preparation and patience. Take your time and you’ll have a far better chance of getting it right. Always practice your spraying technique on scrap wood. It’s easier than stripping and repainting your guitar body! There’s a post showing the process of  spraying a butterscotch body here.

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Q. How do I get a 3-colour sunburst finish?

A.

Here’s how to do it (briefly)

  1. Seal the body with sanding sealer.
  2. Spray front, back and sides in amber.
  3. Spray red transition band including the sides.
  4. Spray Tobacco Brown band on edges. Keep nice and tight in with this so the band isn’t too wide. You’ll need several coats to build up opacity, be careful to let each one dry before the next to avoid runs – don’t rush this step!
  5. Follow with plenty of coats of clear gloss.
  6. After a few weeks hardening, flat, buff and polish.

You’ll need:

See Reranch 101

It’s a good idea to practice first on some scrap wood. Patience is essential. If you rush things, you’ll end up with a less than perfect job.

I apply sunbursts freehand but you can use a masking template held above the body so as not to get a hard edge.

My aersols are normally supplied with an elliptical nozzle, which is great for large areas but a round spray pattern is better for sunbursts. Please let me know if you’d prefer a round nozzle when you buy.

See my sunbursting demo.

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Q. Do you stock Candy Apple Red lacquer?

A.

Candy Apple Red (CAR) is not one colour but a sequence of layers. See how Fender did it here: http://www.guitarhq.com/fenderc.html.

My colours work well to achieve a realistic Candy Apple Red.

The “recipe” is:

  1. White primer
  2. Inca Silver (or gold) metallic
  3. Clear Red
  4. Clear Gloss

Fender used a silver basecoat up to 1965 and a gold basecoat thereafter.

Dust the final coat of silver or gold on from a distance, allowing the flakes to stand at all angles instead of flat on the body. Then dust on the first few coats of clear red (so as not to disturb the metallic) before building up thickness and colour.

I’ve demo’d the whole process here: Creating a Candy Apple Red finish

You need the Clear Gloss at the end for when you flat sand and buff you don’t want to rub through your red. See http://www.reranch.com/101a.htm#final%20polishing.

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Q. How do I strip the existing finish?

A.

To strip a guitar you have 3 options:

  1. Chemicals. In the past I have had success with Nitromors but recently learned that due to new regulations controlling the use of methylene chloride, its formulation has changed and it now won’t have any effect on the majority of guitar finishes. It will strip nitrocellulose finishes, as will cellulose thinners, acetone or ethyl acetate (ethyl ethanoate).
  2. Heat. Using a heat gun can work well for synthetic finishes but be careful not to scorch the wood. Too much heat can lift veneers too so exercise caution.
  3. Abrasive. Sanding works when all else fails but it is a time-consuming task. A mouse type sander is good for curved surfaces such as a guitar top. Start with a coarse grade to remove most of the finish then switch to finer at the end. Be careful not to sand through any veneers.

You must get a smooth, faultless surface before doing anything else.

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Q. How can I age (relic) the lacquer?

A.

I’m no expert in weather checking but have had good results by putting Tele bodies into the freezer overnight. A couple of cycles of freeze/thaw works well. Add a few dings first and these act a centres for the checking. Here’s a  Telecaster that I finished and then distressed.

The ReRanch site has some information on aging finishes and hardware , and see the excellent article in Guitar and Bass Magazine “How To Relic A Guitar Body With A Nitro Finish ” which uses my lacquer.

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Q. What should I use to give my guitar neck a vintage colour?

A.

You can spray my Tinted lacquer over bare wood or existing poly finishes. If the latter, scuff sand very lightly first to provide a key.

If you want to use a tinted lacquer you need to understand that the colour depth increases with film thickness – the more you spray, the darker it gets. If you want to tint the neck I’d recommend sealing first with clear lacquer, spraying the tinted to get the colour you want (matching the back and headstock). Then more clear to build up final finish thickness. That way when you buff you won’t be rubbing through the colour, making it paler in patches.

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Q. Do I need to mask the frets on a maple neck before spraying?

A.

There is no need to mask and you should spray right over the frets.

You can remove the lacquer using a scraper made from a small nail as pictured. The notch is filed in the nail head using a rat-tail file. Wear eye protection though as bits fly everywhere!

You will also find that the lacquer will easily chip off when you dress the frets.

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Q. Why has my lacquer gone cloudy?

A.

The milkiness (called bloom or blush) is down to spraying in humid conditions and it’s caused by moisture getting trapped in the lacquer. You can mimimise this by spraying thinner coats so that the moisture can escape before the lacquer dries. Often this milkiness will go away as the piece warms up or it can be removed by spraying more lacquer in less humid conditions.

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Q. Why does my finish look rough and powdery?

A.

It’s probably a combination of spraying too far away and the weather being too warm. Warming the can can also cause this so don’t.

What is happening is that the solvents in the lacquer are drying before it hits the body so that it can’t flow to create a smooth surface.

Spray closer to your guitar so that the lacquer goes on wet, but not so wet that you get runs.

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Q. Should I warm the aerosol cans is a water bath?

A.

No. I have never found this to be necessary. The propellant in the aerosols is butane which boils at just under 0°C so unless you are spraying in sub-zero conditions (which I don’t advise) then you should have plenty of pressure without warming the cans.

Warming the can also causes the volatile solvents to flash off which can cause a dry powdery finish as the lacquer cannot flow, and the rapid evaporation of solvent as the lacquer leaves the nozzle causes buildup of lacquer which can result in blockage.

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Q. Why is delivery so expensive?

A.

Lacquer aerosols are classed as hazardous and very few couriers will handle them. Those that do are trained appropriately.

I use a flat delivery cost, dependent on location as this is how I am charged by the courier.

Deliveries to areas outside of UK mainland are by sea and consequently take a little longer, typically 2-3 days.

66 Comments on “Nitrocellulose lacquer frequently asked questions”

    • It’s hard to say as there are so many variables such as finish thickness and how good your technique is. I reckon I use no more than 1/2 litre.

    • Will the vintage lacquer be suitable for spraying over the top of the head decals, or should I get the tint sorted first?
      As I’m only doing the neck, it would save me having to buy another full tin of clear lacquer ( I have about half a tin left) just for going over the face of the headstock…..

  1. dear sir or madam , do you sell nitrocellulose lacqer none aersol…….(loos brush) ? thank you.

  2. Hi, for the butterscotch tele cracking finish (24hr in freezer) how soon after final coat did you start the process? touch dry, 1 day etc…? Cheers

      • Hi Steve that tele you’ve done looks excellent! Exactly the amount of light ageing I want to attempt on a sonic blueish strat body I’m doing.
        Now I’m sure I’m being thick asking this question but I feel I need to ask anyway, it says above that you put the body in the freezer a few days after your last clear coat. And it also says to leave it at least a week, if not 3 before cut and buffing.
        So freezing and checking is done before the final cut and polish? Or should I leave the body for 3 weeks after the last clear coat, then cut and polish and THEN bung it in the freezer?

        Cheer!

        • The latter. Leave it to settle, flat sand buff and polish, and THEN freeze.

          Sometimes I am impatient and just jump the gun a bit.

  3. Hi, do you have a step by step for spraying a maple with rosewood fretboard neck. More specifically the spraying itself to get a satin finish like a modern fender neck?
    many thanks

    • You should mask the fretboard face up to the nut.

      Spray a coat of clear lacquer (satin or gloss) to seal the wood and sand lightly to denib.

      If you want to add any colour you should spray tinted lacquer at this stage to achieve your desired shade.

      Then you spray clear satin lacquer to build up finish thickness.

      Then sand back and apply a final coat as in my “Any special tips for satin and matt finishes?” post above.

      When you remove the masking tape you’ll have a rough edge and maybe some overspray on the rosewood. This should be scraped back carefully using a Stanley knife blade or similar.

  4. Hi,

    How many clear coats to yo apply to a body, how long do you leave it before each coat and do you sand after a couple of coats

  5. I want to respray a tobacco burst in Sea Foam green but I want a bit of the burst to show through in places. How easily does this finish distress and disappear? Would I be able to spray it and then play it and get the effect or would I need to sand or otherwise remove the new finish to expose the old one?

    • Theoretically you could play it a lot but it would take some time to wear through.

      Practically you would need to sand the top coat back. I’d recommend using plenty of clear lacquer over the sunburst to that it’s easier to sand off the green without taking the sunburst with it.

  6. Hi is there any way I can remove the bloom or cloudy look on an older guitar. I’m sure it is nitro cellulose,and it just has patches where it is like this.Thanks Rick

    • All I can suggest is what I’ve written above.

      The question is how it became cloudy, has it been kept somewhere very damp?

      I’ve never seen cloudy nitrocellulose on a guitar but some Japanese models from the 70s and 80s become cloudy as the finish breaks down but there isn’t anything that can be done for those except a refinish.

  7. I need to ‘age’ some ivoiride celluloid binding, e.g. darken it. Do you know if the amber lacquer would work on this kind of binding?

  8. I’m interested in a tinted coat for the darker colour, but in a satin/matte finish – what would be the best way to achieve this?

  9. Hi Steve, I have an ash Strat body that I am doing a clear natural finish. I have done the grain filling and sealer coats. I have just sprayed 3 clear coats and have noticed little pinholes in the finish. What have I done wrong?

    • Pinholes or fisheyes?

      If pinholes then your grain filling and sealing were not as thorough as they should have been. These usually occur at end grain or areas of open grain.

      If fisheyes then there is some contamination on the surface.

      To fix either you should be able to drop fill some clear lacquer. Spray some into the can lid, let it thicken a little by evaporation and apply carefully to the hole. Once dry sand flat and continue.

  10. Hi Steve, can I put acrylic based clear coat over a neck that I tinted with nitro based (amber) laquer? Or would that cause trouble?

  11. Hi Steve,
    What’s the best way to get a finish like the Gibson Heritage Cherry, seen on the juniors and Specials.
    Thanks, David

    • There are two ways to achieve a cherry finish.

      Up until 1960, Gibson used a cherry pore filler. This was a grain filler with a cherry aniline dye added. The filler performed the double duty of filling the pores and dyeing the wood red. When the guitar was sprayed with clear lacquer, some of the dye was taken up by the lacquer, giving the effect of a coloured lacquer.

      Unfortunately the red filler caused dust which contaminated the factory and other finishes ended up with flecks of red in them so Gibson changed to using a coloured lacquer.

      For the second technique you can use either my Clear Red lacquer or Clear Cherry lacquer which is a deeper colour. They should be sprayed over a base coat of sanding sealer and finished with a Clear Gloss top coat.

  12. Hi Steve,

    I’ve used some of your sprays for a headstock match before and was very impressed with the products and the result. I’m going to refinish another body and headstock shortly in fender turquoise – does one colour can typically cover a body or would you recommend 2?

    Thanks, Andy.

    • One can is the bare minimum, two is better.

      I did once have a professional car sprayer get two Strats from a can of shell pink though!

  13. HI Steve
    I have a Gibson J180 Circa 1993 finished in black. I am in the process of having the front refurbished and sprayed.
    The guy I have on it is very experienced in finishing and spraying etc but has never done a guitar.
    I have asked him to use nitro cellulose paint and finish with cellulose varnish.
    My question is: As this is a black finish Is there any other tips you might have for me to pass on.
    Really appreciate your informative website.
    Thanks
    Ken

    • Only to say that when finishing an acoustic guitar it is usual to remove the bridge, apply the finish, flat and then reattach the bridge.

      This is especially important if your guitar has the Gibson hollow moustache bridge as it’s the only way to properly finish inside the cutouts.

      Not removing the bridge makes it extremely difficult, if not impossible, to get a perfectly level finish right up to the bridge.

  14. If my maple fretboard has that glossy finish do I have to remove that before I spray nitrocellulose vintage amber lacquer on it? Do I have to sand that gloss off? Or just leave it on and spray over top?

    • You can spray over the top. You should scuff sand (800 grit) beforehand to provide a key. You will probably need to add some clear coats to increase the film thickness and robustness of the lacquer.

      • Another question do you have to sand the whole neck like the headstock and back or just the fretboard are you talking about?

  15. Probably a stupid question but how many 13 Oz cans nitrocellulose amber tint would I need for my Strat neck? And how many cans of 13oz lacquer high gloss would I need?

      • Thank you so much! Last question. I had a strat body I was working on and I applied several coats of nitrocellulose lacquer finish to it a few years ago but never buffed it out. What I have to apply more coats of nitrocellulose OR would I still be able to buff the previous lacquer to a shine? And if I have to do the latter how many 13 Oz cans would I need?

  16. What kind of compounds would you recommend to buff out nitrocellulose finish?

    • I use T-Cut applied by hand as you can see in my demos. I’ve tried others and always come back to it.

  17. Hi,

    I’m in the process of finishing a headstock using your nitro lacquers. I’ve been gently wet sanding the headstock smooth, there are still a couple of clusters of low spots, however I feel I’m getting very close to sanding through the decal (one spot of the carrier film has become more visible). Can I apply a few more coats of clear lacquer and sand back again? Would the extra coats fill these low spots?

    Thanks!

    • Yes, spray some more coats of lacquer. The beauty of lacquer is that you can always spray more and it will blend in to the existing finish.

  18. Hello Mr. Steve,
    I have a question about metallic colors. How do you suggest proceeding to sand the color between the coats and before applying the clear coat? I’m afraid I can remove the metal particles thus scratching the color…
    Thank you for your help!

    • You should never sand the metallic finish before the clear coat because it will disturb the metal particles and spoil the finish. If you do need to sand you have to apply more metallic lacquer.

      See my Ice Blue metallic demo

  19. Hi Steve,
    I’m refinishing my jazz bass body. I used a heat gun to remove the red metallic paint. It was really easy and 99% of the Sanding sealer underneath it is still intact. Should I sand back to wood and then re lacquer with your sanding sealer or am I ok to go ahead and spray my nitro sonic blue? The 1% of the sanding sealer that didn’t survive either cracked off or there were little stone chip sized sings left. These were near the strap button on the base. I’ve filled these with car compound and the deeper gaps with wood filler. I’m a complete beginner at this but would like to do the job properly!!

    • Yes but I’d use a primer coat before the colour, just to make sure everything is smooth and level.

  20. Hi Steve, I have an old Westone Concord bass thats pretty worn on a few frets would I be able to use nitrocellulose to touch it on those specific patches or would you need a complete refinish on the whole fret board.

    • You can touch it up but bear in mind that the lacquer is transparent so won’t hide any damage

  21. Thank you very much for the invitation :). Best wishes.
    PS: How are you? I am from France :)

  22. Hi Steve. Regarding blush – is it ok to spray primer in higher humidity, since it’s going to be covered over anyway? Thanks!

    • You’ll find that it takes on an opalescent appearance with high humidity. I suppose it’s okay but I would avoid if possible, you are still trapping moisture in your finish which is not a good thing.

  23. hi Steve , I’m thinking of painting a guitar body in acrylic (paint pour technique) I was wondering can I use nitrocellulose spray afterwards or will it react …if so what would you recommend for a gloss finish.
    Also what do you suggest I can use for the guitar neck?….its bare wood right now and want to keep that way I wondering i could just oil or wax it rather than spray it
    Thanks

    • Hi Jason,

      I think your typo (which I corrected) pushed your comment to the bin!

      The solvents in nitrocellulose are pretty aggressive and could well damage your paint. The other issue would be that if you wish to level the finish, it will take a lot of lacquer.

      As for your neck, something like Tru-oil (and the matching Birchwood Casey wax) might be best which affords some protection from moisture whilst retaining a natural feel.

  24. Hello, I just sprayed black gloss nitro lacquer over nitro lacquer primer, which had dried for 24 hours. However, after spraying 4 coats with 20 mins drying time in between coats I noticed that the black gloss lacquer looks matte and a bit grey rather than glossy black. It is also slightly opalescent. Is this normal? Will it become glossy with sanding and polishing later, or is it a sign of blushing? Temp was about 18 C, humidity 70%. I was planning on adding nitrocellulose clearcoat after 24 hours drying.
    Thanks for any help you can offer!

    • Yes that’s definitely blush. The clearcoat should fix it so long as the weather is less humid (see FAQ above).

  25. Thank you very much for the reply. In trying to find less humid weather, how long can I leave it before I clear coat?

    • You can apply the clear lacquer straight away. Spray the first few coats very thin to allow the moisture to escape.

  26. Hi Steve,

    I am going to attempt a respray of my fender AV 64 tele ash body (long story, but someone in Largs did a terrible attempt at a relic job). Sorry for the simple question, but is the process the same for spraying a black finish (i.e. sand body > grain filler > apply sanding sealer > white primer > apply black nitro > finally apply high gloss finish?).

    Thanks in advance for your help.
    Best.
    Lee.

    • Yes that’s about the size of it. Please note that you only need grain filler on open pored wood such as ash.

      Check the demos on my blog for details on applying filler and sealer etc.

  27. Hi, I sprayed two coats of gloss lacquer but due to unforeseen circumstances had to stop for five days, is it ok to carry on with more coats or should I sand first?
    Thanks for the help and the excellent website

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